Author Topic: Problem moving extruded solid  (Read 159 times)

BN45

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Problem moving extruded solid
« on: June 30, 2019, 12:18:36 PM »
I am currently using version 28 of DesignCAD 3D Max.  When I attempt to move a solid that was created by using the "Extrude along a curve" a section of the solid stays in its original position.  For example, I created a round pipe by extruding a circular plane along a curved line.  No problem here, it came out fine.  When I select the curved pipe and move it to a new location on the same drawing, a circular segment of the pipe will not move and designCAD redraws the solid in the new location, but also draws a connection to the one segment that didn't move.  The segment that did not move is not the original segment from which the solid was created.  I do not have any problem with extruding along a straight line.

Any idea what might be causing this?  Thanks.

BN45

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Re: Problem moving extruded solid
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2019, 02:10:56 PM »
I tried various shapes of planes to extrude and various curves to extrude along and I fine the case where this problem occurs is very limited.  If the plane to be extruded is made up of straight lines (e.g. triangle) there is no problem regardless of the type of curve it is extruded along.

If the plane to be extruded is curved (e.g. circle, ellispe) and the curve it is to be extruded along is a relatively simple curve like an arc or connected arcs, there is no problem.

If however, the plane to be extruded is a curve (e.g. circle, ellispe) and the curve it is to be extruded along is sort of meandering (but on one plane) then the resulting solid has problems when it is moved.

Dr PR

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Re: Problem moving extruded solid
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2019, 08:22:49 AM »
BN45,

I have never seen this problem, and I have been extruding along curves for many years with DesignCAD.

Version 28 is turning out to be one of the buggiest versions of DesignCAD ever produced.

I suggest dropping back to V26 or V25 for doing real work.

Phil
DesignCAD user since 1987

BN45

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Re: Problem moving extruded solid
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2019, 12:54:55 PM »
Phil,

Thanks for the recommendation.  I repeated the same extrusion in Version 27 and did not see a problem when moving the solid.  Hopefully this will eventually be fixed in the new version.

Lar

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Re: Problem moving extruded solid
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2019, 03:46:16 PM »

Did you extrude with  a plane, line or circle/arc (if not a plane then the resulting extrude is not a solid but just a hollow grid, but I think you know this).


If it is a solid:
...Throughout my history with dcad it seems that every now and then selecting a solid and moving it leaves a component of the Solid behind. I have never understood why. I think I just undo, drag select to make sure select the whole solid and then re-define.


Fyi:
Sometimes when that happens I find that I was using a group to extrude from. This results in a solid with a group inside. If I click to select the solid and snap at one of the members of the group then the group gets selected and the non-group members of the solid doesn't get selected. This is normal behavior because  groups over-rank solids in ambiguous situations. I use this trick sometimes to be able to physically separate components of a solid  without solid-exploding it, or to change properties of only some of the members of the  solid.


Lar
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 04:01:45 PM by Lar »

Lar

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Re: Problem moving extruded solid
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2019, 09:35:20 AM »

Here is an example of Solids being separated by dcad (ie, the user Moves (command) a Solid but not all of the component entities gets moved, dcad leaves some behind), that just happened this morning (v2018)…


In the attached image the highlighted Solids (simple Boxes) were moved but for the top-most Solid only the Plane entity components moves along with everything else. The Grid Surface component stays behind (the complete Solid is circled). Also shown is the 'Command History' dialog showing that the Handle and Move commands (circled) were just performed.


This is not the 'Group' situation I mentioned in my previous post. This is just dcad being dcad (this is the situation I mentioned in the paragraph above the group situation).




Lar


Dr PR

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Re: Problem moving extruded solid
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2019, 11:18:52 AM »
Lar,

I have see this same behavior - parts of a solid moving and parts not moving - many times over the years.

If I recall correctly my solution was to use "Undo" and then select the fragmented solid with a drag box (to get all of the parts) and the use "Solid Define" to put it back together again.

Out of curiosity, were all parts of the separated solid on the same layer??

You have several solids that are the same size. Was one created first and then replicated? How? Copy/Paste, Duplicate (N), Array, Mirror??

Phil
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Lar

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Re: Problem moving extruded solid
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2019, 07:16:48 PM »

Phil,


Just before the Move the Solid was created by the Box command, so it was a legitimate virgin Solid (1 layer, consisting of 2 Planes and a Grid Surfaces, no solid operations done on it). The intact Solids were duplicated from a group created a long time ago. Then the separated Solid was created with the intention of centering in the space and adding to the group.


Looking at the Command History I must have repeated the Move a few times and I guess got the same results. Can't remember exactly.




Lar

Dr PR

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Re: Problem moving extruded solid
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2019, 10:39:21 PM »
It's a puzzle!

I know I have had something similar happen several times, but I don't remember the circumstances. But this has been happening for many versions, probably dating back to V19 or V21. A lot of new bugs were introduced then.

Phil
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Lar

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Re: Problem moving extruded solid
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2019, 10:49:58 AM »

It happens now and then at its own leisure. I tried to describe it in my posts above but then out of the blue it happened so I had to post a picture of it.

The group circumstance I described above can reliable reproduce. It also proves that dcad's selection preference in an ambiguous situation is 'older entity gets selected' and then you can tell the seniority order of surrounding entities by repeatedly pressing enter to see how the selection cycles.

Group in Extruded Solids Test:
1] Create a Plane (any shape) and then duplicate any number of times…
2] Select all the Planes and Group Define...
3] While still selected Extrude (X) the Group so you now have Solids...
4] Gravity-Snap at the extruded end (the end opposite the original Planes) of one of the Solids to select it. Move it somewhere. The whole Solid should be moved.
5] Now Gravity-Snap at the end of a Solid where the original Plane is. Only the Group of Planes will be selected. Click on the Big-Blu handle to Move. Only the Group will be moved. Put them somewhere away from the extrusions. Now snap on one of the extrusions. That Solid, along with it's Plane (that is a part of the Group and now removed from the extrusions) will be selected only. The rest of the Group of Planes will not be selected.

- To explain this:
    First, I should explain that an extruded proper Solid consists of three individual entities: a] the original Plane, b] a Grid Surface created by extruding the outline of the original Plane, and c] a copy of the original Plane placed at the opposite end of the Grid Surface... created in that order.

    Now, when you snapped at the Original Plane end of the Solid dcad found both the Original Plane and the Grid Surface of the extrusion. The Original Plane is the older entity so dcad gave the order that the Original Plane be selected. The Original Plane has a Group ID and a Solid ID. The programmers decided to give Group selection precedence over Solid selections (since it's more natural that a Solid will be a part a wider Group, than a Group be inside inside a Solid) so all the other entities that have that same Group ID (ie, the rest of the Original Planes) gets selected and the entities that have the same SoliID as the Plane (ie, the Grid Surface and the Other Plane) does not get selected.

     Now, when you snapped at the extruded end of one of the Solids the entity dcad decides to be the one selected (the Grid Surface, I think) has a Solid ID, so all other entities with that same Solid ID also gets selected (you guessed it, the Grid Surface and the Other Plane that dcad created from that individual Original Plane AND... that one individual Original Plane... but not the rest of the Group of individual Original Planes, since they don't have the same Solid ID. Each one has it's own Solid ID).

6] Now, to prove, yet again, that dcad selects age over youth:  Snap at one of the individual Original Planes (should be still removed from their Solids) to select the Group of Planes and then Delete them (only the Group will be deleted, not any of the rest of the Solids). Now Undo once, to bring the Group of Planes back. Now, when you Undo a deletion, dcad doesn't actually 'resurrect' the exact same entities with the same Entity ID's. Dcad brings back 'clones'. These clones have all the same Group and Solid ID's but not the same Entity ID. The instant you deleted them other entities took their Entity ID's and when you Undo they are assigned new Entity ID's... at the bottom of the list.

    With the Group still separated from their Solids turn on Point Select Mode, highlight the points of one of the Group of Planes and move it back to where it came from, connected with it's Solid (with its points exactly on top of its Solid's points). Now press escape to deselect and then snap right back at this Original Plane. This time the individual Solid that you snapped at, including it's Original Plane, will be the only thing selected and nothing else. The remainder of the Group of Original (now cloned) Planes will not be selected. You can not longer select the Group of Planes by snapping at this one Original Plane because it is now a younger entity than it's extrusion entities. To select the Group you must snap at one of the other Original Planes that is still separated from its Solids. If you then highlight the rest of the Group and move them all back to their Solids you would never be able to select the Group again (unless you Undo the move OR, select one Solid and Solid Explode it and move the Grid Surface away from the original Plane so you can snap at it alone).

Now one more thing, more like an observation... If you did put all of the Grope of Planes back with their Solids then Undo the Move. Select the Solid with the single Plane back in place (so only that Solid is selected and none of the rest of the Group) and Group Explode. Now snap at one of the removed Group of Planes. The rest of the Group will be selected but the one replaced Original Plane will not be selected. This is because when you selected the one Solid and Group Exploded, the Group ID of the entire selection was made zero and a Group ID of zero means it is not a part of a group. Since only the one Original Plane was selected and not the rest of the Group only that was given a zero. The rest of the Original Planes retained their Group ID's so they are still a Group. << and this is probably one of the reasons why the original programmers decided to leave gaps in the Group ID list, so if you undo the deletion of a Group and then Undo, the clones can fit right in place without having to figure out what the new Group ID should be>>


Lar
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 10:58:15 AM by Lar »

Dr PR

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Re: Problem moving extruded solid
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2019, 10:23:31 PM »
Lar,

This all makes sense! Good work!

It also explains why I haven't seen this problem very often since nested groups were implemented.

Personally, I think the way nested groups was implemented is an abomination! Invisible and non-selectable "packages" on "empty" layers is screwball. Consequently, before grouping ANYTHING I always select the objects and use "Recursive Group Explode" to eliminate any of the hidden group packages. Not only do I eliminate any existing groups, I never create a nested group and I also create a new Group ID for all the elements in the group, and everything goes at the end of the list (younger).

So if I select a solid that is part of a group I select everything in the group and every part of the solid.

****

However, if I select an extruded solid I may snap to the "old" end or the "new" end, and that could explain why sometimes the entire solid isn't moved.

I learned a long time ago that when solids began "falling apart" like this, if I would select all parts, explode the solid, and redefine everything as a solid again the problem would go away.

Phil
DesignCAD user since 1987