Author Topic: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?  (Read 1578 times)

Dr PR

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2016, 11:48:48 PM »
I decided to create a complex multi-layer TIFF image in Photoshop. It had this layer structure:

Background - white
Layer 0 - one of my original TIFF images
Layer 1 - a JPEG image
Layer 2 - a simple photoshop bitmap line drawing (scribble)
Layer 3 - "THIS IS A TEST" text

I saved it to several TIFF file formats:

1. No compression, interleaved RGBRGB, IBM PC bit order (littlendian), RLE layer compression
2. LZW compression, interleaved RGBRGB, IBM PC bit order (littlendian), RLE layer compression
3. ZIP compression, interleaved RGBRGB, IBM PC bit order (littlendian), RLE layer compression
4. JPEG compression (quality 12), IBM PC bit order (littlendian), RLE layer compression
5. No compression, interleaved RGBRGB, IBM PC bit order (littlendian), RLE layer compression, save image pyramid
6. No compression, interleaved RGBRGB, Macintosh bit order (bigendian), RLE layer compression
7. LZW compression, interleaved RGBRGB, Macintosh bit order (bigendian), RLE layer compression
8. JPEG compression (quality 12), Macintosh bit order (bigendian), RLE layer compression
9. No compression, interleaved RGBRGB, IBM PC bit order (littlendian), ZIP layer compression
10. No compression, interleaved RGBRGB, IBM PC bit order (littlendian), ZIP layer compression, save image pyramid

This was only a small sampling of the 2048 different TIFF file types Photoshop can generate!

****

Only images 1, 5, 6, 9 and 10 loaded into DesignCAD V23.1. These had no compression. All images with any type of compression failed to import into DesignCAD V23.1. Bit order, layer compression type and with or without saving the image pyramid didn't seem to matter.

So that narrowed things down a bit!

****

Then I opened the V23 files in V26.1 and did two things:

A. I copied the bitmap image and pasted into Photoshop:

1. Image pasted into Photoshop complete - but only background and Layer 1 that was a composite of original four layers.
5. Image pasted into Photoshop complete - but only background and Layer 1 that was a composite of original four layers.
6. Image pasted into Photoshop complete - but only background and Layer 1 that was a composite of original four layers.
9. Image pasted into Photoshop complete - but only background and Layer 1 that was a composite of original four layers.
10. Image pasted into Photoshop complete - but only background and Layer 1 that was a composite of original four layers.

B. I saved the file as V26.1 and reopened it.

1. File opened OK - all images visible. Only one bitmap image.
5. File opened OK - all images visible. Only one bitmap image.
6. File opened OK - all images visible. Only one bitmap image.
9. File opened OK - all images visible. Only one bitmap image.
10.  File opened OK - all images visible. Only one bitmap image.

PUNT!

I'm not sure what this means, except my Win 7 Pro 64 machine running DesignCAD V26.1 seems to like any file containing TIFFs that V23.1 can produce, and it doesn't screw up the images when they are saved.

BUT: None of the TIFF images from V23.1 had more than one image layer and a background. In this way they are different from John's TIFF images. On my machine V23.1 collapsed the four image layers into one in the TIFF images. I need to figure out how to create multilayer TIFFs that V23.1 won't collapse. I need the second (or third or fourth) image layer to verify that V26.1 is stripping these layers off when it saves the file.

****

It's almost 1 AM here and I am stuffed with turkey and having trouble keeping my eyes open.

To be continued ...

Phil

SETBACK: Looks like if I Copy (CTRL+C) the multilayer image file from Photoshop and paste it back into Photoshop all of the image layers are compressed into one image layer, with a background layer. So Windows copy/paste is squashing the four image layers into one.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 11:54:19 PM by Dr PR »
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Johnfromfrozennorth

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2016, 05:25:22 AM »
Phil;

I am very impressed and grateful to have guys like you around to help with DC problems... it's inspiring.

Hopefully your Tiff layer analysis helps the IMSI people come up with a work around / update.

1a.   I do reset the configuration options to be the same as V23 (including file locations). But I agree with Lar, once the image is loaded into DC, it's there and DC no longer looks to a location when the file is re-loaded.
1b. Yes
3. The problem has to be a change in DCv26.1 because V23 handles the same TIFF image no problem.

Attached is one of my smaller TIFF files to play with. It was created by a Photo reproduction company, scanning on a wide format scanner to the TIFF format.
I have no idea of settings, other than to know I have thousands of these files, presumably in the same format which I would love to work with in DC2016.
My fall back strategy is to continue with DC23, which can save and open and not lose the TIFF image! (But, I was really excited about DC2016's improved ability to handle larger files with imported images).

Thanks again
John
P.S. TIF doesn't seem to be one of the file types I am allowed to attach to this post - might be a clue to what IMSI thinks of those types of files!. So there is no attachment, sorry. I can e-mail it directly if you like. But, not sure if e-mail address sharing is a good idea on these forums...

Lar

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2016, 07:53:57 AM »
But I agree with Lar, once the image is loaded into DC, it's there and DC no longer looks to a location when the file is re-loaded.
Just to clarify, since the image is embedded (ie, not 'by reference') it is actually a part of the file so dcad doesn't have to link to any external source file.

So, for some reason dcad can't read the image information. From Phil's research on the image layers and since the image initially is visible, maybe dcad looses a layer each time the drawing file is reopened, until only 1 layer is left, or could be merging the layers but the *blank* layers actually have image information, ie, the layers are painted white and not alpha layers, so the image layer gets covered.  This maybe can be tested by, in Photoshop, either rearranging the layers, merging all the layers down to 1 layer (or up... what ever it takes so the image doesn't get covered by the *blank* layers) or copying the image layer to the background layer before loading into dcad.

Lar

Dr PR

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2016, 09:20:51 AM »
John,

You can get around the shortcomings in the Forum's attachments list by Zipping the TIFF file. You can post a ZIP file on the forum.

Whether or not the TIFF file transfers unchanged during the Zipping process is to be seen.

****

I have been experimenting with copy/paste on my Win 7 Pro 64 machine.

If I open my multilayer TIFF file in Photoshop it has four drawing layers and a background layer.

If I select all layers and copy them to the clipboard, and then paste mack into a new Photoshop drawing all drawing layers are merged. There is one drawing layer and the background layer. This is true if I use "Paste" or "Paste Special."

Then I opened DesignCAD V23.1 and opened a saved file that was created with the multilayer TIFF file. Copy/Paste from DesignCAd to Photoshop resulted in an image with just two layers, one drawing and the background.

Then I started over in V23 (closed and opened again) with a blank file and imported the original multi layer TIFF file (Load image reference only" was not checked). I then used "Edit/Copy Image" to copy the file to the clipboard.

Then I switched to Photoshop and used "Paste" and "Paste Special" to create new files in Photoshop. In both cases there were only two layers, one image and one background.

In all of these operations the images did contain all elements of the original four layer drawing, but the four drawing layers were compacted into a single drawing layer.  Where any elements overlapped on the original drawing layers the higher layers hid parts of lower layers.

****

So I can't use copy/paste in any of its many forms to determine if the TIFF file in the V23.1 drawing still retains the original four drawing layers, or if they are already compressed.

****
Lar may be onto something. In John's original TIFF file the top layer contained the graph, a layer below it contained a solid white fill, and the background layer was solid white. If the solid white layer is being compacted over the graph layer the resulting image would be two layers, one white and a white background. But normally when multilayer images are compacted into one image layer the higher numbered layers fall on top of the lower layers and hide part or all of the lower layer information (this depends uppon whether or not the upper layers are transparent except for drawing information like lines or text).

Phil
DesignCAD user since 1987

Dr PR

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2016, 09:39:46 AM »
Arrrgggghhhhh!

Now I am really getting frustrated!!!

I saved john's original file that he posted above. Then I opened it on DesignCAD V23.1 and copied the image.

Next I pasted it into Photoshop and it has only two layers! A drawing layer with the graph and the background layer. So I can't repeat what I did earlier to get the three layer image in Photoshop.

****

I tried it using DesignCAD V26.1 - which is what I did originally - and the file pastes into Photoshop with only two layers, with the graph visible.

****

So I don't know how I got the three layer image from John's file in the first place!

Today it seems any copy/paste combination gives me a two layer image.

Phil
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Johnfromfrozennorth

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2016, 09:55:53 AM »
Phil;

Here is the zipped file. It is a TIFF (hopefully unchanged during the zipping process - zipped with Win 7 Pro). Original size was 112 kbytes. It is a simple drawing, but the file format should be the same as all the files I am working with.

John

Dr PR

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2016, 09:25:06 PM »
The drawing in the ZIP file opens in Photoshop as a single layer (background). The drawing elements are in the background layer.

Can you ZIP the drawing that was in your original DCAD file posted earlier. I think it has three layers.

Phil
DesignCAD user since 1987

Johnfromfrozennorth

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2016, 09:52:11 AM »
Phil;

FYI, attached is the zipped version of the TIFF image I had in the DC23 drawing file. It was created by Adobe Acrobat (SAVE As, Image, TIFF) from a pdf original. I must say that file was only a sample I created to illustrate the point that the image is no longer visible after saving with DC2016.

The file I last posted ("John's Sample TIFF scan of a drawing") is where my problem lies - as it represents the many files I have of the same format (scanned the same way at the same time). I need to get DC2016 to handle that type of file...

Thanks
John

Lar

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2016, 03:15:15 PM »
John,

What you can do, until this issue gets sorted out, is load your images by reference. I tested and it does not disappear after saving and reopening. You will just have to be diligent about saving the images to child folders and if transferring a drawing to another computer be sure to send the drawing folder with the child folder in it (and if the original file date is important then append the date on the filename). Hopefully this issue will get sorted out before you have thousands of files to correct.

Lar
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 03:24:06 PM by Lar »

Dr PR

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2016, 08:16:40 PM »
Now I am really confused. Your drawing A-10U opens in Photoshop as a single layer (background) with the drawing information visible in that layer. Not even two layers!

I went back to your original DesignCAD drawing and copied the image and pasted it into Photoshop, and it has two layers (image layer and background).

I opened a blank drawing in V23.1 and used "File/Image/Load Image File" to load the same A-10U TIFF image that you just sent. The drawing then had one visible bitmap in it. Then I copied and pasted the image into Photoshop and it now has two layers (background and image) and the image was visible!

I then saved the new V23.1 file and opened it in V26.1 - and the image is visible. I saved it under a new name and opened it in V26.1 and the image is invisible. The drawing still contains one bitmap but I can't see it. When I try to open the V26.1 drawing in V23.1 the file opens but the image is blank.

However, if I select the blank bitmap in V23.1 and use "Copy Image" and paste into Photoshop the drawing is visible. If I just select the bitmap and use "Copy" to paste into Photoshop the image is blank. Apparently "Copy" copies the vector drawing elements to the clipboard, but "Copy Image" copies the screen image. So even though we can't see an image on the screen it is there and can be copied to the clipboard! When the "Copy Image" bitmap is pasted into Photoshop I see the outline of the bitmap plus the blank screen around it from the DesignCAD window.

But if I close V23.1, open it again, load the file from V26.1, select the blank image, copy with "Copy Image" and paste into Photoshop the image has two layers (background and image) but both are blank. So nothing is repeatable!

From V26.1 both "Copy" and "Copy Image" paste blank images into Photoshop.

This is a mess but it does look like V26.1 is screwing up something. Because "Copy Image" can sometimes capture a bitmap image of the TIFF image even when it is not displayed on the screen the TIFF image is loaded into V26.1 but it isn't being displayed correctly.

****

Just for kicks I opened V26.1 and enabled RedSDK - entirely different display code. Then I opened the earlier V26.1 saved version of the test file. No joy! The bitmap image was still invisible and "Copy Image" pasted a blank image into Photoshop. So the problem is more rudimentary than the display routines.

Phil
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 08:56:00 PM by Dr PR »
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Johnfromfrozennorth

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2016, 04:38:06 AM »
Phil:  I gte worried when you are confused! I was there a while ago...

Lar. Sorry to be dense but cannot see how to load image file by reference? Just interested to try that - but it is not a solution. The drawings I create are used on many computers and also stored in dropbox for remote access - it would all be too complicated to do it that way.

John

Lar

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2016, 05:46:20 AM »
When you invoke the Load Image command enable 'load image reference only' at the very bottom of the dialog.

Johnfromfrozennorth

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2016, 11:40:27 AM »
Lar.
Got it. Thanks. It worked here and now the image stays visible.
As we said earlier - this is more of a workaround than a solution.

Will Await the Droll Troll's input this week.

John

DrollTroll

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2016, 07:13:30 AM »
In version 24 (or 25?) we switched out the graphics libraries that we were using to support the different raster formats. So it's entirely possible that our new libraries are doing something different with the TIFF format. I'll dig into this as time permits, and see if I can stumble upon a common thread.

@Phil: It's normal when pasting an image into Photoshop for the pasted information to go in a separate layer, with a default blank white background layer.

*Update*: At the moment, my best guess is it's down to the color depth. The attached zip file contains three bitmaps with 1, 16, and 256 colors. When added to a drawing and saved in version 25 or later, only the 256-color image displays correctly. The drawing file is from DesignCAD 3D Max 2016.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 10:08:25 AM by DrollTroll »
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Dr PR

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2016, 11:11:51 AM »
DT,

Good find!

Phil
DesignCAD user since 1987