Author Topic: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?  (Read 1288 times)

Johnfromfrozennorth

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Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« on: November 23, 2016, 07:49:35 AM »
I have an 8Mb file created in DC23. There is a large size file (TIFF image) loaded into Layer 0. Purchased DC2016. Edit the file in DC2016; make a small change; save the file; then exit DC2016. Upon exiting the file size is reduced in half. (watching a windows explorer screen on extended monitor). Re-open the file and the tiff is gone? This does not happen when editing the file in DC23. Reproduced the problem on my laptop which also has the new DC 2016. Any ideas?

Lar

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2016, 09:16:22 AM »
Was the tiff loaded 'by reference" and did you delete the original tiff, renamed it or moved it to another folder? If loaded by reference then the tiff doesn't really exist in dcad but is only linked to the original tiff by its name and path when loaded.

Or, did you open dcad's 2016's Insert Manager to do anything with the tiff. If so, is it possible you highlighted the tiff and inadvertently clicked the 'delete' button?

Or... anything on layer 0 can be automatically moved to the current layer when the file is next opened (depending on your settings). It could be possible the tiff got switched to another layer and that layer got turned off.

Upon exiting the file size is reduced in half.
While you work dcad reserves memory for the the 'undo' info and saves it with the file. When you close the file dcad gets rid of this excess memory. This is what you are seeing. Caution: if you work with a backup file and save between them (ie, whenever you 'save', you also 'save as' to another filename) then only the file that is actually closed at the end of your work session will rid itself of this excess memory. If this is the case, after working and closing the file, you should then open the other file and just close it. If you don't, then if at any time in the future you reopen this file, be it 10 years later maybe just to copy something to the clipboard, dcad will purge the excess memory and save the file to that later date. This date discrepancy between when you remember last working on the file and what the documented date is, can cause much pulling out of hairs. Also, if you have many such files, you will have been wasting lots of memory over the years.

Lar
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 09:19:55 AM by Lar »

Johnfromfrozennorth

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2016, 10:54:41 AM »
Thanks for the quick reply.
1.  The TIFF was loaded as follows: File; Image; Load Image File; Browse and select file. Then I inserted it and resized it. (Tiff file resided on my hard drive).
2.  Never used the Insert Manager.
3.  Tried "Show All" and "Unlock All" in Layers; in case it did get moved... cannot see it.

This problem is new to DC2016. I am a 20 year DC user and have never had this problem before.

I am baffled by this. We upgraded to DC2016 for it's ability to handle large image files loaded into the drawing. It is an amazing improvement from DC23. Imported images caused DC23 repositioning of the drawing on the screen to be very slow (count to 4 or 5 while the screen refreshes to the new position). It's almost instantaneous in DC 2016.
We often load google earth images of a property and then draw drainage designs on top of the image. Sometimes we bring in Tiff scans of older drawings to edit - since we are 100% paperless now.

Johnfromfrozennorth

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2016, 12:44:16 PM »
Lar:

I decided to create a small sample file so you can see the problem. (see attached file: Sample file to post.dcd)

Simply open the file with DC2016; move the text around a bit. Save the file with the disk icon. Then press File, Exit.
The file size will reduce dramatically. When you re-open the file the Tiff image of the drawing you saw in the centre will be gone.
John

Rob S

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2016, 01:27:39 PM »
Does the same for me, no idea why.  Image is gone, noting to select.

I tries a sample of my own, loaded a tif image, edit, save re-open, and in my sample the tif was still there and selectable, but it was totally invisible!!!!

I retried your sample, and under drawing info, it says it contains 2 bitmaps.

When closed and re-opened it still contains 1 bitmap, which is blank!!!

I have an older drawing containing a tif file, and I tried open saveas edit save and it works fine, so not sure what is causing this.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 01:49:51 PM by Rob S »
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Johnfromfrozennorth

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2016, 03:31:06 PM »
Rob;

I also have many older files (mostly DC23) with Tiff's loaded in.
When I edit with DC2016 and then save as DC2016 the TIFFs disappear - but they are selectable - except for they are blank.
Maybe a bug in DC2016?

Lar

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2016, 05:06:18 PM »
I tried and the bitmap went blank here too.

When it comes back blank it is nameless (no name in the info box) and there is another blank and nameless bitmap behind it.

My guess is either 2016 has problems with the tiff format or this tiff is corrupted and it loads properly but can't be saved... the 2nd time(??).  Dcad loads the bitmap entity but it can't load the actual image information (this same thing happens with linked symbols that dcad can't find and the user does not browse for [when the file is being opened]).

I don't have any tiff's to try. I stopped using tiffs once jpg got sable, way back then. I remember dcad usually had problems with tiff. Either they loaded flipped, upside down or with the colors inverted.

Lar

adriank

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2016, 05:11:04 PM »
I get the same result with your embedded image.
There are in fact 2 bitmaps in your file - there is a second blank outline under the readable one. It's larger, measures 60 x 40 compared to 50 x 38 for the visible one.
Interestingly if I move the blank BMP to the top it does not obscure the image under it, so it's not a blank image, it is simply a blank reference.

I sent your image to my clipboard and pasted it into Paintshop at it's original size (2200 x 1700) then re-saved that as both a TIF & a JPG & re-inserted them back into your file. Both those images stay visible when I re-open after after saving & closing.
Perhaps it has something to do with the way your TIFF file is saved in the first place.
Do you have the same issues with JPG or PNG files?

I'm way out of my depth here, but I do understand that TIFFs can be saved in different ways, and may (according to Wikipedia) act as a container containing a JPG file. Is it possible your TIFF is losing it's JPG content & you are left with an empty container?

Adrian

Dr PR

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2016, 07:37:08 PM »
V26.1x64 10-Oct-16 (beta 6?)
Win 7 Pro 64

I opened a blank drawing and then opened a TIFF file on layer 1.
I drew a line on layer 2 and some text on layer 3.

All displayed correctly. I closed the drawing and opened it again and everything was still visible.

Then I drew some more lines, saved the drawing and closed it.
When I opened it again everything displayed correctly.

Phil
DesignCAD user since 1987

Johnfromfrozennorth

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2016, 04:29:42 AM »
I tried many different TIFFs this morning, so it is not likely they are all corrupted.

The entity (image, bitmap) is definitely still there after saving and exiting; but blank. It's size (H x V) is good. I tried resizing the blank image, no luck to make it appear - it has been wiped - because the file size is reduced.

I also tried making a file with a TIFF in one layer and a JPEG in another layer. The JPEG stays fine, but the TIFF returns blank!
I agree with Lar, DC2016 must have a problem with Tiff's.

The Tiff's I use are created in two ways:
   1.  Directly from a wide format plan scanner. According to the photo reproduction company that scanned all my old drawings,
        the TIFF format is preferred for smaller file size with as good or better quality than the JPEG. Also, my experience tells me that DC
        handled (DC23 or earlier) TIFFs much better - much reduced file size and easier screen re-positioning.
  2.   Conversion of pdf drawing files into TIFF's so they can be imported to DC. I use Adobe Acrobat to do this.

I realize DC2016 handles JPEG's no problem - but I have thousands of TIFF files of scanned drawings that I insert into DC.

DC23 had no problems with TIFF's - I wonder what changed, and if it can be fixed.

Since I am a new poster to this forum, but DC user since early 1990's, please tell me how we get IMSI to help with this?
John

P.S. Phil (Dr PR): I see you have V26.1 I am using 26.0  maybe IMSI did some update I should obtain.

Johnfromfrozennorth

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2016, 05:13:33 AM »
One more thing....(as to why we use TIff's)

I Made a DC23 file from Tiff a scanned plan (size=112Kbytes) - the resultant DC file size is 9,703KB - easily manageable.

Made a similar DC23 file from the same image file converted to a JPEG(size now =1,819 Kbytes) - the resultant DC file size
is now 77,361 Kbytes - and very hard to manage, takes about 90 secs to save; difficult to move around in the file (slow).

This is the main reason we had all our plans scanned as TIFF's to be loaded into DC.
John

Rob S

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2016, 12:15:42 PM »
I would say posting it here is as good as any way to have the issue looked at and attended to.

Our moderator aka Droll Troll looks after these things wherever possible!!
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Dr PR

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2016, 09:47:48 PM »
John.

I opened the V26.1 file with the TIFF image in it that I made yesterday (after the computer had been shut down for hours). It opens correctly and the image is displayed correctly.

Then I saved if from V26.1 to a V20 format file. After that I opened it again in V26.1 and it opened correctly with the TIFF image visible.

Next I started V23.1 and opened the V20 file - the image was visible. Then I saved it in V23 format. I also opened the V26 file in V23 and it opened OK with the image visible. I also saved it in V23 format.

Both files opened OK in V26.1 with the images visible. I then edited the V26-V20-V23 file and saved it as V26 again. Then I opened it in V26 and the image was visible.

So V20, V23 and V26 are all mutually compatible using the TIFF files I have. They were produced by someone else several years ago using a flatbed scanner to scan black and white photos. I have no idea what settings the scanner may have used.

****

I suspect the problem is one of three things:

1. I'd bet it is just a difference in the setup between your V23 and V26 DesignCAD programs. Because the files contain an empty container for the images I would guess that V26 is trying to load the images but cannot find the TIFF image files where it thinks it should be looking for them.

When you install a new version of DesignCAD it DOES NOT automatically set up the same configuration information, such as file locations, as your previous version. So every time you install a new version you must first manually set up the proper operating parameters to get it to work like the older version. This has been a royal pain in the kiester for as long as I have been using the program (since 1987), but no amount of pleading has gotten the programmers to implement a way to transfer configuration information automatically - even though this would be extremely simple to implement.

1.a. In the "Options/Options/File Locations" tab there is an "Image" entry that tells the program where (what file path) to look for image files. Is the V26 entry the same as in the V23 program? just to be safe are the "Import" paths the same for both programs?

1.b. Are the image files in the same location (folder/directory) on the V26 machine as in the machine where the V23 files were saved? If you just upgraded from V23 to V26 on the same machine the answer should be "yes."

If this doesn't solve the problem:

2. It may be a problem that has been carried along in the V23 files that you weren't aware of until V26 hiccuped. Some hidden or corrupt file entity.

3. Maybe it is a problem with the TIFF images. This can be tricky because there are actually many different types of TIFF images.

Some are not compressed - every pixel is saved as in the original image (scan, photo etc.). This was originally TIFFs greatest advantage - you got maximum image resolution/quality but with the price that the files were very large.

Some TIFFs are compressed with one of several algorithms. The files size is smaller but part of the original image is lost. Some use the LZW compression algorithm. A TIFF file can be a container that carries a JPEG image. They may be one layer only or multiple layers. They may be multiple pages (multiple images in one file). They may be "bigendian" (Motorola) or "littleendian" (Intel) byte order (you need to go way back to remember having to deal with this). There are several color, grayscale and black/white mapping schemes. And some developers embed proprietary information in the files. When you save a TIFF from a program like Photoshop you have a lengthy list of options.

There used to be a joke that TIFF stands for "Thousands of Incompatible File Formats."

It may be that something has changed in DesignCAD between V23 and V26 that makes it incapable of opening TIFFs with the particular set of characteristics at the TIFF files you have.

If you can post one of your TIFF files the rest of us can play with it to see if we can reproduce the problem. Some of us like this sort of challenge.

Phil
DesignCAD user since 1987

Rob S

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2016, 09:58:05 PM »
We should bear in mind I have aready reproduced the problem both with the submitted file in one of the earlier postings, and also using a new blank dcad file and a tiff file of my own inserted into V26.1

I am not sure why mine goes blank like his does, and yours does not, but as you say most likely an issue with the file itself.  Also my tif file was about as large as the one in the original posting.

Further to the above, bear in mind these were embedded files, so no need for designcad to find them on disk or to read them in any way.  This is confirmed by the fact the file is visible in the original posted drawing, and disappears after being saved with V26.

The file displays fine when first inserted, and goes blank after save and reopen.

I checked some of my other files with tifs or jpgs in them, and they do all show two objects where I would expect only 1, that may be a separate issue.
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Dr PR

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Re: Exiting DC2016 deletes a large TIFF image in Layer 0?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2016, 10:33:39 PM »
Rob,

Good points. I do see the same problem that John describes with his file. I can select both of the bitmap image frames in his file and open them in Photoshop. After the images go blank both images copied from DesignCAD and pasted into Photoshop do actually contain images - but they are the "poplar bear in a snow storm" image, all white. However, one of them has only a background layer and the other has a background and a second layer. This second layer is all white.

So it looks like saving his files containing TIFF images from V26 strips all of the image information from the bitmap.

I also checked the files I have made here with imported TIFFs and they contain only one bitmap image, not two.

****

AHA!

When I open John's original file it has two bitmap images.

1. When I copy the small image with the graph drawing and paste it into Photoshop it has three layers:

Background - white
Layer 1 - white
Layer 2 - black lines on a white background

Image size is 590W x 398H pixels, 72 pixels per inch.
It is a grayscale image, 8 bits per channel.

2. When I copy the larger image outline from DesignCAD and paste it into Photoshop it has two layers:

Background - white
Layer 1 - white

Image size is 590W x 398H pixels, 72 pixels per inch.
It is a grayscale image, 8 bits per channel.

So it is the same size in pixels, but it is scaled larger in DesignCAD.

****

So it looks like V26 is failing to save the top layer of the TIFF image.

I opened John's original drawing in V26.1 and selected the bitmap graph image. I then copied it to the clipboard. Then I opened a new DesignCAD drawing in V26.1 and pasted the image into it - it came in blank.

I Opened the original file, copied the graph image and pasted it into V23.1 - it came in blank.

I opened the original file in V23.1 and copied the graph bitmap. Then I opened V26.1 and pasted the image into it - the graph appeared. I also pasted the image into Photoshop and the graph appeared.

****

it is clear that DesignCAD V26.1 is losing the upper layer of John's TIFF image whenever it tries to copy or save the image. V23.1 does not do this.

However, I can copy the TIFF image from my test drawing from V26.1 and paste it into Photoshop and it is OK.

Obviously my TIFF format and his are different.

To be continued ...

Phil

DesignCAD user since 1987